Tribe.net. Local Connections ALLAH God of all http://gardenstate.tribe.net/thread/678a6bee-9f75-46ed-98b4-2f02e3191466#9c4390ab-a851-48c7-b779-a66aa627c22d 2008-09-17T13:51:43Z 2008-09-17T13:49:12Z

***********you can not breach the plain language meeting of the minds.********** Unless you memorialize that contract in a written agreement the so called meeting of the minds is pretty valueless. If it goes south it ends up a quarrel over what people were thinking. So your agreement to buy X minutes may very well have included the contractual language that allowed them to shunt your cal through various other service providers. I might have done this by virtue of silence. If there is nothing in the agreement that disallows it then they can do it. and they will until you find a court that agrees with you that they should not. ***********Unless there is some reason that a reasonable person would assume such a thing would take place.******** This reasonable person standard ins entirely inapplicable. A contract muse be fulfilled pursuant to the express terms of the written agreement. If you don't have the terms in the agreement then - - you don't. Once a dispute breaks out a court can play mind reader and seek to enter the minds of the parties at the time of contract formation. Then that court can read the terms into the contract and reform the agreement to reflect the court's little game of mind reading. Getting a court to do this is not easy unless one party has really slammed the other. You may have such a case where you'll ask the court to reform the agreement. ******For example, it would be reasonable for me to assume that an operator assisted call might incur an extra charge of $5 or $10...in fact, on a previous bill, it did just that.********** Look to the express terms of the agreement not what you assume or imagine. Forget "reasonable person" language. That stuff is meaningless. Look to the express terms of the written agreement. ****** Just because companies routinely get away with such things, doesn't mean they are legal.********* Unless there is a law against it it's legal. You can seek to have a court declare it unlawful or in violation of the agreement. But until the court speaks you are SOL. Companies just hope that you don't know the law. ********If the public really knew the law, these companies would get away with a lot less. ********** I disagree. If the public were a little more sophisticated and more inclined to read the agreements they sign, things might be different. But, people are lazy and in a hurry and they don't read the credit card agreements or cellular service agreements or mortgage agreements and then when things go south they end up whining that "it's not fair" because their own sloth and haste caught them up in a situation they might have avoided. What you might consider doing is to spend the lousy fifty dollars or so and send them a summons and complaint to answer for their charged in small claims. They will have to answer. In Small Claims they can not send a lawyer. In Special Civil they can. Small claims limits your damages to very small sums but you can demand the max anyway. And the judges are accustomed to unsophisticated litigants who haven't a clue what they are doing. The court usually splits the baby and sends every one home equally miserable.

ALLAH God of all 2008-09-17T13:49:12Z Jon http://gardenstate.tribe.net/thread/678a6bee-9f75-46ed-98b4-2f02e3191466#4855025a-1ca0-4459-bf3a-38eedff94e07 2008-08-29T15:07:50Z 2008-08-29T15:07:50Z

thanks for the comments... sure, I am upset, but that really has nothing to do with the law. I am aware of the law, - contract law, business law and Constitutional law. To some extent. I don't have the knowledge of a lawyer, but maybe the knowledge of a paralegal on some issues. you can not breach the plain language meeting of the minds. If I try to buy free long distance and you sell me a service claiming to do so...you can't go back on that word, claiming clause X allows you an exemption. Unless there is some reason that a reasonable person would assume such a thing would take place. For example, it would be reasonable for me to assume that an operator assisted call might incur an extra charge of $5 or $10...in fact, on a previous bill, it did just that. On this bill, it cost an additional $160. That is not the kind of charge that any reasonable person would presume would exist for a service. So, it is a kind of bait and switch tactic. Just because companies routinely get away with such things, doesn't mean they are legal. Companies just hope that you don't know the law. If the public really knew the law, these companies would get away with a lot less. And that goes not only for service companies, utilities companies, but all employers. Many, many employers routinely break the law. If you know what the law is...you can really protect yourself. Lawyers are expensive. We have a kind of "legal insurance." You get one free letter from the lawyer per year, one free consultation per year per new issue...and reduced rates if you have to go to court. The one we have is called Pre-Paid Legal. It is worth it, to know that you can go to the law and protect yourself. The system can work to protect you, if you know how to use it. Not that I know that much, but I am trying. If people don't feel like they are free from abuse, then there is no real peace. Without real peace of mind, we just don't live civilized lives...but always live worrying about what the next bozo is going to do to us. Not a good way to live.

Jon 2008-08-29T15:07:50Z ALLAH God of all http://gardenstate.tribe.net/thread/678a6bee-9f75-46ed-98b4-2f02e3191466#fe3df208-fb80-4a80-a449-3deae646bba0 2008-08-28T19:47:01Z 2008-08-28T19:47:01Z

*********Please be aware that this kind of practice is really illegal. *********** I rather suspect you meant that it really pissed you off and felt dirty. Legality however would be a question of whether it violated any of the code sections under 2C of the NJ code. If you think this violated your written agreement you should do some hing you have probably failed to do thus far and read the thing. If in fact it you end up remaining convinced that it is violative of the agreement then you can initiate an action in small claims. Changes are you'll get half from the judge cause she won't bloody well please to actually read the agreement either.

ALLAH God of all 2008-08-28T19:47:01Z Jon http://gardenstate.tribe.net/thread/678a6bee-9f75-46ed-98b4-2f02e3191466#661dd11c-dbcb-44de-ad01-a91d2a5a4b4d 2008-08-26T22:24:38Z 2008-08-26T22:24:38Z

Not that this is anything new, but be very careful when choosing your phone plans. Verizon just basically stole $160 from me. They seem to leave in loopholes into the contracts so that they can slam you with huge charges if you make a slight error. I made a long distance call. The call did not go through. I had the operator assist me. I did not know that such a call was not covered by my plan. And, instead of charging me, oh, $5 or $10 for the operator assistance, they bounced that call off of the free calling plan, and I caught $160 worth of charges. It was two calls. Note: that one was a counseling call. Please be aware that this kind of practice is really illegal. They may have spent enough more on lobbyists to protect themselves - at least in the short term...but a contract is a contract. I contracted with them for free long distance service. That is the clear implication of the agreement between the two parties. They cannot throw in some obscure clause that a client might overlook and then say, "Gotcha." That constitutes a breach of the contract...because what is implied is not only the specificity of the language, but the plain interpretation that anyone would lend to it. So, I called them for a plan that would give me free long distance. They responded with a plan. That is the agreement. And they breached it. It is a basic principle of law (in the 9th Amendment among other places) that fairness is the pervading principle of law. If you have been wronged, then the law must advocate for you. And all other contractual relationships must bow before the prevailing principle of fairness, civil rights and the general societal contract that all citizens have with society. So, don't let them hoodwink you....learn your rights and advocate for them. Take care all, Jon

Jon 2008-08-26T22:24:38Z